Race & Democracy in America

Transcript for Student Voices

Juliet Hooker/Jeanne Ernest

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You’re listening to Student Voices, a podcast featuring student-led interviews of Brown University faculty based on the Race & in America panel discussion series, curated by the Center for the Study of Race and Ethnicity in America in partnership with the Office of the Provost.

Jeanne Ernest: Hello, I am Jeanne Ernest, a senior in history, and I'm speaking with Professor Juliet Hooker of Political Science about the recent panel discussion on Race & Democracy in America. Hello, Professor Hooker. How are you today?

Professor Juliet Hooker: Hi Jeanne! Great to see you.

Jeanne Ernest: I have a couple of questions, but do you have any reflections after the discussion in December?

Professor Juliet Hooker: So I think just briefly, one of the things that I would say is that, in a way, the discussion seemed to flow towards [on the one hand] people who were kind of defending the idea of democracy, and [on the other] those who are like, 'we need to move beyond it.' And I think that doesn't actually represent the way...the sort of range of approaches that we actually hold. In a way, I think we're all trying to think about the ways in which democracy doesn't serve Black people and Black politics and what we need to think about differently. And so I think that was the starting point, I think, for most of us on the panel. Then thinking about what do the experiences of Black citizens tell us about what's wrong with democracy or what about democracy doesn't work, at the same time as thinking about how do we preserve Black life in the present even as we strive for something better in the future.

Jeanne Ernest: Absolutely, and I guess to stay with that, I couldn't help but hear parallels to the abolition conversation that's going around now. So this tension, perhaps, between a reformist and transformational mindset. I'm curious to hear maybe more explicitly where you fall on that scale. And it sounds like you don't necessarily think that's even a useful scale. I'm not sure if even the comparison between incarceration and democracy in terms of how to move forward is applicable. But just thinking about the ways in which Black people in this country are afflicted, are oppressed, are...where [are] certain channels for change.

Professor Juliet Hooker: I think there is a difference between the prison abolition debate and the debate about how should we relate to democracy. Because, in part, the debate about democracy is in some ways a debate about the State. Right? If we're talking about doing away with a particular form of political organization, what are we replacing it with? Right? And I think the thing about the prison abolition debate is folks have a very clear idea of what they want to replace it with.

My starting point is I think Black citizens should stop being asked to repair white democracy. I think that should not be the starting point of any conversation. And so we need to think about the ways in which U.S. Democracy has depended on the labor and the sacrifices of Black people. At the same time, I think -- and the insurrection on January 6 [2021] and a lot of recent events have shown -- there is a constituency that's in the U.S. that is very much committed, I think, to a not-democratic perspective that cements white domination. And historically, as problematic as it has also been... State power has been problematic for Black movements and Black people, but historically, it has also been the thing that has allowed them to have some protection against white violence and white supremacist violence. So I think that's the conundrum we kind of find ourselves in.

So on the one hand, yes, there are all these problems with democracy, but historically, some appeal to multiracial democracy has been the thing that has kept white violence in check.

Jeanne Ernest: Absolutely. And I think we saw that in the last election. I do want to pivot to -- and I think it's related -- a point that you concluded the discussion with a little bit, which is the relationship between gender and race in these conversations as well. And so thinking about Black women, like Stacey Abrams and others, who essentially got Trump out of office or transformed what our democratic system looked like in the last election -- between the presidential election and, of course, various congressional elections -- I guess I would love to hear you expand a little bit more on where you see the place of gender, because I think it was just an added point. But I think it's really relevant to these conversations as well.

Professor Juliet Hooker: No, I think you're absolutely right. One of the things that has been striking, and I think a lot of people have noted this, is the way in which we celebrate the democratic labor of Black women. And I mean democratic, small d: the labor to save democracy, to preserve democracy. But we are also hesitant, if not reluctant, to accept their leadership. And I think that that is a really important point to drive home: that we can't, again, rely on and celebrate their labor without also saying 'we need to follow the lead of Black women in politics. What are the things that Black women need and what are the things that they are pushing for?' If they are really the people who are doing this vital labor of democracy, then their ideas, their political ideas, Black feminism needs to be a starting point for thinking about all the major problems that are confronting us at this moment. And I think that's the real transformation. I think there's been a step forward insofar as there is now recognition, at least, whereas before it wasn't even recognized that Black women were doing this labor.

But the next step is to say, 'how do we make their ideas central,' and not do this thing that I think has been the case where it's like, 'oh, that's identity politics and that's going to divide the left. And we need to focus on other things that are more universal,' as opposed to thinking about their ideas and their concerns. As those are shared by other people, they're going to point the way forward for a society that's going to be fairer and more able to take care of all.

Jeanne Ernest: I hear that very much as intertwined with a point that you emphasized in the discussion as well, which was that maybe it's time to let go of our commitment to American exceptionalism -- this particular idea and understanding of national identity and U.S. superiority and all these different things -- and instead transition to a different model. I can't help but bring up the question about post-democracy that Professor Willis introduced as well in the discussion. I'm curious if making that idea a little bit more concrete and perhaps merging it with this idea that you're discussing of that step past recognition, of forming multiracial coalitions, I suppose, in this sort of newer understanding of democracy that's definitely separating itself or distinguishing itself from the past to a certain extent. Do you see that as different [from] a post-democratic society? And, do you see that as a break from the past, perhaps?

I, of course, am a student of history, and so I'm always curious about the place of historical narratives and the past in the present. And it sounds like you're talking about a slightly more radical break from the past, but perhaps not as radical as moving past a democratic system that we have. I guess I'm curious about learning more where the fine lines of that shift would be.

Professor Juliet Hooker: Yeah, absolutely. So I think one thing that's really important to think about as we think about what we want our movements and our political movements and our societies to look like is think about democracy, not just as some sort of organizing institutions, but also as a practice. So when I look at, for example, the Movement for Black Lives and their argument that they’re leader-ful not leader-led, and that that's why they don't have a more vertical, let's say, leadership structure; that seems to me to be about the kind of internal democratic practices that we want our movements to have. We don't want these movements led by these charismatic strongmen. We want them to be leader-ful. So I guess what I would say is I don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. I think we have to critique the way that democracy has been absolutely dependent on all kinds of hierarchies and inequalities in the past. But we also have to nevertheless, I think, preserve the sort of democratic practices that actually have been central to Black feminism, even if we don't call them by that name, and that are part of the tradition of many Black political movements historically.

Jeanne Ernest: I like that vision of the future, and I think that's a great note to end on as well. So thank you Professor Hooker for speaking with me today.

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Student Voices is a feature of the Race & in America digital publication series developed by the Brown University Library. Our theme music is “see the unseen” by Butter. Explore the series at DigitalPublications.Brown.edu